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The Well-Nourished Mother: Helping You Thrive in Pregnancy, Birth & Motherhood
Do you long to experience pregnancy, birth and motherhood on a deeper level?
Do you desire to explore new knowledge and perspectives, to practice tuning into and trusting your own innate wisdom, and to embody your most authentic version of self?
If that’s a “heck yaaaa” I hear, then WELCOME dear sister. You’re in the right place.
In this space we bring so much reverence to the rite of passage that is the maiden to mother journey. Join Lauren Fortuna-Floch for unfiltered and inspiring conversations with experts, mothers, and all around badass wise women, where we’ll explore all the ways we can nourish ourselves- body, mind, and heart. We're blending the head AND the heart, the mind AND the body to help you cultivate the knowledge, practices, and resources you need to be the most aligned and radically well-nourished mother you deserve to be.
The Well-Nourished Mother: Helping You Thrive in Pregnancy, Birth & Motherhood
21. Exploring a Map for Your Matrescence with Jessie Harrold
Matrescence—the identity transition into motherhood—is gaining recognition, but even though many now understand what it is, most mothers still lack a roadmap for how to navigate it.
Enter, Jessie Harrold.
Jessie has written a beautiful book based on her many years of work supporting women and mothers through radical transformation, which offers practical tools for navigating the complex and sometimes uncomfortable experience of matrescence. It's quite literally a map for your matrescence.
Jessie Harrold is a coach and doula who has been supporting women through radical life transformations and other rites of passage for over fifteen years. She works one-on-one with women and mothers, facilitates mentorship programs, women’s circles and rituals, and hosts retreats and nature-based experiences. Jessie is the author of Mothershift: Reclaiming Motherhood as a Rite of Passage (Shambhala 2024) and Project Body Love: my quest to love my body and the surprising truth I found instead. She is also the host of The Becoming Podcast. Jessie lives on the east coast of Canada where she mothers her two children, writes, and stewards the land.
"What if losing yourself in motherhood isn't the problem, but the point?"
In this episode, we explore:
- Defining Matrescence: Jessie shares her perspective on matrescence as a time-limited experience, emphasizing its role as a rite of passage
- The Four Elements of Radical Transformation: We explore each element of Jessie's model, discussing simple tools and practices to navigate the identity shift and complicated feelings that can accompany this metamorphosis into mother
- Embracing Grief: Understanding grief as a natural component of matrescence, Jessie outlines the four essential needs of grief and its significance in the transformation process
- The Seven "Motherpowers": Discover the skills and capacities that can be cultivated through matrescence, and how these powers have the potential to quite literally change the world
- Completing the Rite of Passage: Jessie discusses what it means to conclude the journey into motherhood, highlighting the importance of the "return" phase in any rite of passage
If you're a mother in the depths of your own matrescence, feeling like you've lost yourself, this episode will help you navigate the uncharted waters of your matrescence with confidence and compassion.
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Connect with Jessie:
@jessie.es.harrold
www.jessieharrold.com
BUY HER BOOK! You won't regret it.
I'd LOVE to hear your thoughts and feedback... send a text message directly to the show.
Join the community over on instagram to connect with your host Lauren @nestandnourish.
In a rite of passage framework, we get to do 2 things that we don't necessarily get to do when we think of a life transition in any other way. And particularly in a linear way, we get to grieve. That's part that's kind of part and parcel of what a rite of passage is all about. We get to, you know, feel complex feelings about losing who we used to be. And then we get to be in liminal space. It's the sort of sense of being betwixt in between. It's like I'm not not a mother, but I haven't fully stepped into this motherhood identity yet. I don't really know who I am at all. And and that's kind of a not super sexy and not super fun place to be, but a rite of passage framework for the transition to motherhood makes it okay. Welcome to the Well Nourished Mother podcast. This is a show for women who desire a deeper, more mindful and meaningful pregnancy, birth and motherhood experience. In this space, we bring so much reverence to the rite of passage that is the maiden to mother journey. I'm your host Lauren Fortunaflock, founder of Nest and Nourish. I'm a mother, an ex nurse turned birth worker, and a trauma informed somatic coach with a fiery passion for birth prep and mother head prep that blends the head and the heart. Join me for inspiring conversations with experts, mothers, and all around badass wise women, exploring all the ways we can nourish ourselves, body, mind, and heart in pregnancy, birth, and motherhood. This space will help you cultivate the knowledge, practices, and resources you need to be the most embodied, vibrant, authentic, intuitive, and well nourished mother you deserve to be. So welcome. Let's do this. Welcome back. This is episode 21 of the Well Nourished Mother podcast. It's the beginning of January 2025, and, of course, the new year has me reflecting on this last year of podcasting. I will say I definitely released fewer episodes than I expected. But in the name of doing things my way, following and attuning to my own needs and capacity and season of life, I'm actually really proud of the episodes from this last year. I released 5 interviews with incredible women. And my friend Nicole Pasvir and I started up our little co created segment called musings and magic where conscious motherhood, heart led entrepreneurship and a touch of magic meet. And we released 6 episodes of that segment last year. So if you haven't heard any of them, go back and check out last year's episodes. There's tons of juicy stuff in there. And for this year, 2025, I'm aiming for monthly interview style episodes with some incredible guests. Some I already have lined up for you. And some I'm just starting to reach out to. But trust me, they're topics you're going to care about. Hormone health, ritual, just so much goodness. So much. And it's all around, of course, how to be a well nourished mother. So I'm going for 12 episodes next year. And then on top of that, of course, our musings and magic segment. And, yeah, monthly for those as well, but we're flexible around here. Motherhood demands it. So that's just a little tiny quick update of what you have to look forward to in this space on this podcast this year. And, of course, I have some other things up my sleeve as well that you'll just have to wait and see. So, on to today's episode. I am so honored to share this chat with you. So, I found Jessie Harrold on Instagram somehow, sometime last year, and I've just been endlessly inspired by her and by her work with mothers ever since. So, of course, we are talking about one of my favorite topics, which is matrescence. And not just what it is because I think a lot of us have a bit of an understanding now of what matrescence is, but deeper than that, like how to actually navigate it and going deeper into what's actually happening to you through matrescence. So if you're a mother or you're pregnant or you work with other mothers, this is going to be such a helpful and enlightening episode for you. So buckle up. So who is Jesse Harold? Jesse Harold is a coach and doula who has been supporting women through radical life transformations and other rights of passage for over 15 years. She works 1 on 1 with women and mothers, facilitates mentorship programs, women's circles, and rituals, and hosts retreats and nature based experiences. Jesse is the author of Mothershift Reclaiming Motherhood as a Rite of Passage and Project Body Love, My Quest to Love My Body and the Surprising Truth I Found Instead. She is also the host of The Becoming Podcast, and Jesse lives on the East Coast of Canada where she mothers her 2 children, writes, and stewards the land. And today, we are diving into her book, mother shift, and all of the juicy details of what this book offers you as a mother, which is a map for your matrescence, a map for navigating the ups and downs and discomfort and beauty of matrescence, of becoming a mother. So let's get right into it. Here we go. Jesse. I'm so excited. I I keep saying that, but I am. And I say this every time with every person I get to chat with truly, but I'm just so excited to speak with you and learn more about you and your work. I'm just incredibly inspired by your work in the world and with mothers. So thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. So the first question that I always ask all my guests is, can you share a word or phrase to describe your current season of motherhood? This is a great question. Okay. Interesting because I would say that this very day is a little different than the whole rest of the season. I would say okay. I'm gonna use the word growing. And maybe I would give him 5 more minutes. I think there's something a little bit more articulate. But but, right now, both of my kids so my kids are 9 and my little eldest just turned 13. So I'm kind of in this new era. And let me just describe it in this one very specific way. I signed up for a yoga class that's, like, 3 minutes down the road from me on a night that I normally solo parent because my husband is playing volleyball. And I signed up this for this class because I realized that I can leave my kids at home for an hour when I'm 5 minutes away. And it feels like a whole new I mean, it's a little thing, but it feels like the dawn of the new era. So I know maybe a lot of people listening are like, oh my god. I cannot wait for that date. Let me tell you, I didn't think it would come. And and we're growing and I see my kids really maturing in this way that I'm kind of sitting back and I'm in awe because I didn't think it would ever come. You know, that whole this too shall pass advice, like, never feels like it applies to you as it. Oh, I love that. And as someone who's on, like, the total opposite end, I have a 3a half year old. I can't do anything ever, it feels like. That, like, sense of freedom that you're kind of describing is like, oh, I'm yeah. This too shall pass. One day, we'll get there. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So for those that don't know you, can you give us just a quick little rundown? Who is Jesse Herold? What are you passionate about and what's lighting you up right now? Yeah. So I am a coach and a doula, and I've been, supporting mothers, through their transition to motherhood for the last 17 years. And, also kind of have an expanded practice where I support all kinds of people, women primarily through all kinds of rites of passage and radical transformations in their lives. So that's kind of professionally what I do, and I'm a writer. Maybe that's, like, the first main thing I am and a mother as I've alluded to. Yeah. And that's kind of how I land here today in this world kind of occupationally. And, you know, I'm a lot of other things, a land steward, a ritualist, you know, friend and community builder and all of these things. But, yeah, that kind of me. And what's lighting me up? That's what you asked. Right? What's lighting me up right now? Okay. I am in this amazing community building program, which probably for years, I would have convinced myself that I was already very good at this and did not need to take a program. But let me tell you, it's really amazing. It's called our common, and it's, run by somebody named, Sarah Wildman. She's just fantastic. And I'm totally so it's one of these things that's just absorbed my every waking thought. Like, I just naturally am gravitating towards this new way I can build community. And what's this challenge I'm having? And oh, this is such a great idea. And who do I want? You know, like, it's just kind of yeah. It's really, taking up, like, a lot of space in this really organic way. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just can't stop thinking about it. So that is, that feels really real. And this kind of way that, it's also really imperative. I mean, it's imperative for all of us, isn't it? But it feels really imperative to me right now. That's amazing. I can feel your your passion and excitement about it. And it's funny. That's kind of how I felt after reading your book. Oh. Like, it really was taking up so much space in my brain. And just, you know, motherhood and matressants and all of the threads that come along with that generally take up a lot of space in my brain right now. That's really what I'm kind of focused on. So I think that's a good kind of segue right into what we're here to speak about. Thank you for sharing that. So I preordered your book before it was released, and I I read it start to finish in one sitting the day I received it, which is wild for a number of reasons. Right? Because I haven't been able to read a physical book in a really long time with a toddler. And also, I don't think I've ever really read a book in one sitting before at all. But I just couldn't put it down, and I was just nodding my head to everything. Like, yes. Yes. She gets it. Just feeling so validated the whole time, and, you know, you've written it in in such a way that it's just really easy to read. You've made, like, a really complex topic that pulls on so many other intertwined, topics. It's it's so accessible and easy to understand and move through. So, yeah, I'm fangirling over here, and it really does kinda feel like my bible right now. I don't know if that's, like, a little too much to say. But Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. Like, there's just so much I want us to touch on, and I know we're not gonna get to it all. So I'm just gonna trust that it'll flow how it wants to. But first things first, let's lay down the foundation for everyone listening. And I like to think that all of my listeners now know and understand what matrescence is. But just in case, because we are going to be talking all about matrescence today, could you give us your kind of working definition? What is matrescence, and why should we care about it as mothers? Mhmm. Yeah. Happy to. So matrescence is a transition to motherhood. Put very simply, it's a process that as anyone who's a mother probably knows is biological, it's psychological, it's social, it's often very spiritual. So really it's this change that changes absolutely everything in our lives. And one of the pieces of matrescence that I'm really interested in is how it changes our identity. And so, you know, it asks us to become a different person than we used to be before. And I define it as a process that takes 2 to 3 years. And, that definition is primarily, like, anecdotal in nature just from my experience, but also there's a lot of really compelling cross cultural practice and praxis that sort of points toward this 2 to 3 year time frame as being quite significant. Yeah. So that's kind of how I would define, define matrescence. Yes. Thank you. So I think some people are there's kind of 2 camps. There there's, like, the camp that says, yes, matrescence is, you know, 2 to 3 years, and then there's this camp that's like, no. Matrescence is forever. What do you have? Like, what do you think about that? Yeah. I do have thoughts about that. You're right. And, we also have this kind of idea that postpartum is forever. And, like, of course, we'll never unhave our children. But, there are a couple of reasons why I think we need to think of matressants as a time limited period. And, you know, I guess I'll I'll preface that by saying, I think of matressants as this deep identity shift. So this kind of, experience that's asking us, who am I now that? It's kind of my favorite question. Who am I now that dot dot dot. And we can ask it about a lot of things that change in our lives. Who am I now that I'm a mother? And, you know, as we grow and mature as mothers, we may have, more experiences relating to our motherhood that ask us that, who am I now that question. 1 that, I've had clients ask and that I have grappled with and am grappling with is, like, who am I now that when my child is unwell? Or, you know, whose life course kind of changes what you expected? That's a real like, that's a deep shift. But a lot of the changes that we experience over the course of our motherhood are actually things that need us to, like, update our skills, change our behaviors, you know, those kinds of changes. And so when I talk about an identity shift, it's it's not about the things that you're saying or doing. It's not a behavioral thing. It's not something you're doing differently. Like, it might be, but it's more, more than what you're thinking or even, you know, believing sometimes. It's it's deeper than all of that. So so that's kind of like the the preface I come into this whole kind of concept with. But then there's these parts of matrescence that I think we need to, like I mentioned, kind of, you know, consider that they have sort of a, a healthy adaptive lifespan. And one of them, for example, that I talk about extensively in the book is this idea of grief. And the really, you know, other complex emotions also that we can feel, as we transition into motherhood. Those are normal feelings because anytime you go through a rite of passage or a deep transformation in your life, you're asked to leave an old self behind. You know, you are grieving the loss of an old self, and that's really normal. And grief is meant to be something that becomes right sized over time. So now that I have a 13 year old, we're literally catching me on a day where I had to, like, leave work early and go get her from school because she was having a time. And do I have grief about those parts of my motherhood that, like, interrupt my life or that, are not as I expected. Yeah. For sure. I do. But I can metabolize those and move through them pretty quickly now, in ways that I, you know, felt like they were my whole life. My whole world in those first 2, 3 years was, oh my gosh. This is like the most massive disruption and disorientation ever. Right? And so so we want that to be a time limited experience. We don't want you to have a 13 year old and for you to feel constantly like you are grieving an old self and that you haven't fully kind of, made this transition into motherhood and become both who you are now as a human and who you are as a mother. Right? We want that to kind of shift over time. Another piece of it that, I think is a little controversial, and I hope I've done it justice in the book, is that, for those of us in intimate partnerships, and particularly those of us in, heterosexual intimate partnerships, And I think that's primarily because of social conditioning that happens with both females and males that kind of ends up being a bit of a perfect storm in in early parenthood. And I should also say this, you know, primarily happens with people who have, like, biologically carried their children, and especially when you're breastfeeding, all of which I think are wonderful things. But they essentially, they shift what, you know, we often pride ourselves on having kind of equal relationships, especially now after the hard work of our former mothers to make sure that that's the case. And having a baby often just completely disrupts that balance. And, you know, we can get into this more if you want to. But I think that that's okay in the first little while, and I think it's actually like quite adaptive and quite natural and normal. In a lot of ways. It's physiological in a lot of ways. You know, we have this idea of the mama baby unit. There's a Swahili word for that called mama toto, where we refer to mother baby as one unit for the 1st 2 years of life. And it feels like that, I think, for a lot of people, especially those who've carried their children and who are, you know, nursing their children. Those are kind of, you know, aspects that can certainly magnify this experience, this mama toto experience. And then there needs to be a time where that disrupted balance in our relationships and our intimate partnerships then begins to shift back to something that looks a little bit more like equity. So there's two examples of why I think we need to kind of think of matressants as something that has, like, an a completion where we feel embodied in motherhood. This is an integrated identity for us, And now we're moving and we're gonna have all kinds of life changes to completely disrupt us all over again. All good. Mhmm. And the and the mothering that and the, like, the skill, I guess, that we develop in this time of matricence if we're well supported to do so will help us weather all of those changes to come. Because we'll know, oh, yeah. This is the part where I need to tend to my grief. Oh, yeah. This is the liminal space, and it ends eventually, but not quickly. You know? And, hopefully, that gives us the skills to traverse all of these other changes too. Mhmm. And I love that distinction, and it's true. Like, we like you said, we want that, like, the tumultuousness. Is that a word? To come to an end and so that we can feel, like, embodied and okay in this new role and identity. And I think this kind of, you know, leads into the book is titled mother shift, reclaiming motherhood as a rite of passage. So this idea of motherhood being a rite of passage, and I know that rite of passages need an ending as well. So can you tell us, you know, what is a rite of passage and why should we treat it? I mean, you've kind of said this already, but why should we treat it as a rite of passage? Yeah. Yeah. So a rite of passage I mean, there's actually a lot of ways to define this, and I think, you know, it, culturally, it differs as well. I think of a rite of passage as the kind of change that changes everything. Yeah. Something that just completely changes who we are, often changes, you know, where we belong in our lives as well. A huge disruptor, and it could be something that happens to you that you do not choose, or it may be something that you choose, but are nonetheless completely transformed by it. They happen both ways. They can be things that are, you know, deeply wanted and wonderful and can also be things that are really difficult. And so that's kind of how I think of a rite of passage. And why do we think about motherhood as a rite of passage? Because traditionally and cross culturally, anywhere you see rights of passage honored, which is pretty much in every culture in some way or another, we recognize people as being fundamentally different after they've gone through a rite of passage. Hand in hand with that is also often maturation and development. And so, like, becoming growing essentially as a human, evolving as a human. And, you know, a lesser kind of attended to part of a rite of passage, especially in our culture nowadays, is that they were also meant to make you better community members. You were meant to go through rite of passage, so you'd grow up and you'd grow useful to the rest of your community. In some way or another, you would uncover your gifts and, and and step into kind of the wider ecosystem of your community with with clarity and purpose and intention. So that's kind of, you know, this kind of purpose of a rite of passage in motherhood asks us to become different. So just calling it a rite of passage is sort of, you know, kind of flips the middle finger at this whole idea of the bounce back. Right? Yes. Yes. Kind of, just disrupts that whole idea that we is so pervasive in our culture that motherhood shouldn't change you at all. Yes. And you should. And then that would be a terrible thing actually if you lost yourself in motherhood or if you changed. So so that's its kind of fundamental purpose. We also hope that and I think there's a lot of potential that, the right of passage into motherhood grows us up and evolves us and grows us wiser. And as I talk about in this kind of second half of motherhood shift, there's also this way in which it has the potential to grow us into the kind of people that our world needs right now. And so that's kind of where I think the potential is in thinking about this. And then the other piece is that in a rite of passage framework, we get to do 2 things that we don't necessarily get to do when we think of a life transition in any other way and particularly in a linear way. We get to grieve, as I talked about. That's part that's kind of part and parcel of what a rite of passage is all about. We get to, you know, feel complex feelings about losing who we used to be. And then we get to be in liminal space. And I've I've used that word already once, and I'll kind of explain what it means. It's it's a sort of sense of being betwixt in between. It's like I'm not not a mother, but I haven't fully stepped into this motherhood identity yet. I don't really know who I am at all. Don't know where I'm headed. Don't have any goals right now. You know? And and that's kind of a not super sexy and not super fun place to be, but a right of passage framework for the transition to motherhood makes it okay. Like, it just normalizes it and gives us oodles of permission to, be in this and have that be okay and and know that it's just part of it and that you'll come out the other side. You really will. And so there's some those are some of the things that kind of thinking of motherhood as a right of passage kind of gifts us the ability to do. I love that. This is like yeah. It's culture shifting stuff. I love that you said it's like giving a big middle finger to bounce back culture because that's really what this does. You know, looking at motherhood as a rite of passage as something that will change you, and that's okay. Yeah. Just completely throws this idea of you can't change. Don't you dare lose yourself. You know, you better bounce back. Like, it really just throws it out the window, which is what we want. And, yeah, like, let's get into the book because it is incredible. So I love how you say in the book, you know, matrescence is beginning to be more understood and kind of slowly seeping into the mainstream. The word is at least. But even if we're starting to understand what it is, we still don't really have a road map for how to navigate it. And we know the what. It's this massive change, this identity shift, but not the how. And I think that's what so many people like you and I are so interested in. Like, how do we actually support mothers through this tumultuous time, this tumultuous and incredible time? And as mothers, like, how do we support ourselves? How do we make sense of it? How do we stay afloat in these choppy waters? And your book shares what you call a map for your So can you share a little more about the map overall? And then we can maybe go into the four elements of the map. Yeah. Totally. So when I first started coaching, mothers and also people who were kind of traversing big changes in their lives, I really because I'm a total nerd. I looked for some kind of a model or a framework that would help me to support them along the way. Like, I was looking for this map. And I, you know, dug around in rights of passage theory and, adult development psychology, a whole bunch of kind of theory and sort of academic work that explores life changes, life transition theory in there. And I found that it was all it just didn't reflect what the people I was working with were experiencing. So the vast not to put it well, I'm gonna put it super bluntly. Like, the vast majority of this information was so if we look at rights of passage theory, it was primarily came from this one social anthropologist named Arnold Van Gennet, who was, like, actually quite disdained in his career. And he, you know, studied the work of other social anthropologists, white old dudes, who traveled to traditional cultures and just, you know, observed what was happening there and decided they knew what was going on, and then took this information and back and said, here's what here's what it is that's a rite of passage. Everybody goes through rite of passage, and they kind of universalize this experience. This is not the greatest way I think to go about, surmising anthropological data. You know, a lot of, like, adult development theory, you know, the kind of the psychology of how we grow up as adults, you know, after our teen years are over is very much, like, capitalist and white. And, so it's all about, like, how do you become a more productive human or, like, let's let's make better CEOs is where a lot of that psychology comes from. So none of this was in, you know, very reflective of the very, like, nonlinear, you know, very relational experiences that my clients were having. And so I decided to create my own map, my own framework, and it pulls on all of these, and it's got a lot more permission to be a human, to be honest. And it's not culturally appropriate, best of my knowledge. So so the four elements of radical transformation are what the the kind of map is called, And, it moves to these 4 elements, earth, water, air, and fire. And the kind of the difference is that rather than just theorizing about how transformation happens and what might happen as a result of having gone through a deeply transformative process, it actually just gets our hands in the muck and says, yes, and here's what you can do about it. Here's how you support yourself. Yeah. I I liken it to, like it's like when you're on Google Maps and you're kind of looking at a map, and it's just sort of this yeah. It's great, but it's not until you hit the button that brings you right down to the street level that you're like, oh, this is what's going on here. That's what this map is like. We're at street level here. I love that. Yes. Okay. So can you take us through the first element in the 4 element, map? Yeah. I think it's Earth. It's Earth. You got it. So Earth is really a time of getting oriented to what's true now that everything has changed for you. And because, our lives as mothers, as women, as humans, our ecosystems, when one area of our life changes, AKA we become a mother, all of the other areas are affected too. So, you know, maybe we're not we're, like, rethinking our careers, or maybe we don't wanna live where we're living anymore. And maybe our marriages are completely, you know, upended. And our friendships look different, and our families, you know, aren't supporting us or are supporting us differently than we expected. It changes everything. So that can be really overwhelming. And so this is just the very settling and soothing work of saying, this has changed. This has changed. This has changed. It's noticing and naming everything that is different. So we call it earth because it's like getting your toes in the earth of what's true now. The other analogy that I use is, you know, anytime you're hiking, and you're out in the woods, you get lost, they say, don't go crashing around looking for the trail, which is kind of what we do in motherhood. Right? It's like week 2 of new baby. Okay. I gotta figure out the new normal. That's the equivalent of metaphorically crashing around looking for the trip. No. We're gonna sit down and and stay still for a moment and takes talk of your surroundings. So the the the kind of nitty gritty work of Earth is to kind of look at the ecosystem of your life and notice what has changed. And maybe start to notice how you're feeling about that. And so it's simple. It's deceptively simple, but it's very soothing. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, so many things change, your relationships, your friendships, your body image. I think that's a really big one. Yeah. You you talk about the big slowdown. So how do you know what is the big slowdown, and how do you know when a mother is really in it, like, really in the big slowdown? Yeah. The big slowdown is this thing that happens to pretty much all of us when we become mothers where motherhood just slows us down. Like, it just really puts the brakes on everything. And most of us, at least for some period of time when our babies are first born, especially find ourselves kind of I don't wanna say only capable of, but that's kind of how it feels. Only capable of, you know, maybe nursing the baby if that's what you're doing or, like, changing a few diapers. And we kind of go from being these people who are able to get a lot done and, you know, maybe are kind of, you know, surviving or at least tolerating this kind of capitalist patriarchal world where our value is really predicated on how much we can accomplish. And then all of a sudden, we're not doing any of that anymore. And I find that that's one of the things that makes new mothers, especially, like, brand new mothers, particularly uncomfortable. And I and I you know, it's all well and good to say things like sleep when the baby sleeps and all of these kind of trite things. And, like, I fully agree. But I think what's underneath that kind of pithy advice is like, who am I if I'm not performing productivity for a capitalist culture? How do I assert my value and worthiness in the world then? And so it's actually it runs a lot deeper. Right? And, you know, some of us experience this for longer amounts of time than others, depending on how quickly we need to go back to work. Like, that's a whole other conversation that's really challenging for a lot of mothers. And I would say that the big slowdown still happens and that even when we're kind of thrust back into this world that, you know, sort of it can be challenging to keep up with, We where they don't keep up and saying that in kinda like air quotes, when we lose our tolerance for it, and we realize just how messed up it is actually. Mhmm. Yeah. It's like this we're having to redefine productivity. And I think, like you said, like, this big slowdown, it's so jarring for so many women in our capitalistic society, especially for women who, you know, hustle and are very high achieving. And like you said, our value is inevitably wrapped up with how productive we can be. You know, I see it in my postpartum doula clients as well where, you know, sitting on the couch and feeding their baby while I'm trying to, like, okay, sit down, like, just stay seated. I will do it. I'm here to help you. Like, let me get something for you. Even that and, like, accepting care and help. Like, all of these things are they feel really uncomfortable because of the way that we live our lives in our current culture. So, yeah, it's jarring. It feels very it can feel very uncomfortable, especially in our nervous systems when we're like, okay, kind of hypervigilant for our babies. Also, like, what can I be doing? What should I be doing? This feels weird. Everything's changed. I don't know what to do. I need to do something and kind of redefining that productivity and realizing that, like, rest is productive. Sitting and feeding my baby is productive. It's a big shock. It's a big shock. And I don't I write about this in the book. I don't know if you notice this in your practice, but, you know, particularly for people who are, like, you know, kind of wondering wanting to know how this shows up practically. I think this often shows up in, like breastfeeding problems. I'm gonna use the air quotes around problems too, as well as sleep problems. Because those are 2 of the things that kind of, again, you know, this is gonna be different for everybody depending on their experience, but those are the 2 things that tend to slow us down the most. We're nap trapped or we're, like, you know, at home waiting for a baby to fall asleep or waiting for the baby to wake up or we're up all night and we're too tired to do anything during the day, same with breastfeeding, you're kinda, like, stuck. We can breastfeed in creative ways. But, but we're we're kinda, like, pinned to this kind of schedule, often to this couch. You know? And so what will happen is, you know, these kind of problems that present with trying to make babies sleep on a schedule or trying to, like, manage breastfeeding so that mama can be a little bit more active and out and about. And I think there's, like, a good time and place for all of these things. But I think particularly in the very early days where everything is a huge learning curve and you actually legit just need to sit on the couch or sleep. You know, it it it kind of these problems can present and underneath them, it's like, yeah. But I don't feel like myself anymore. I don't feel like my body is my own anymore. Like, that's actually where we need to do some work and not, like, try to get this baby to take a bottle for crying out loud or, you know, trying to get the baby down at 10 AM. Right? So I think, you know, the big slowdown is at the root of so much of the things that we find really hard in postpartum. And, like like, that's where we actually need to pay attention rather than kind of trying to solve the problems that seem to be appearing on the surface. Yeah. Yeah. And I just love your question of who am I now? Like, just to continue to ask yourself that. Yeah. Like, who am I now? Who am I now that I'm nap trapped? Who am I now that I'm, yeah. That I don't fit into my old clothes. Who am I now? Yeah. That my friends, you know, my friend group is changing because you know, old friends don't have kids and they're in a different phase of life now. Like there's so, so many ways you can ask that question. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So let's move on to the next element. So we've touched on earth, the next, element being water. Yeah. Yeah. So I've talked about water a little bit. It's the element of grief, can also contain other challenging and complex emotions. It's about letting go. It's about release. And it's really yeah. It's just like I said, it's this time of really reckoning with the fact that you are no longer the person you used to be. And, you know, there's there's a concept called ambiguous loss that was kind of explored by, someone named Pauline Boss. And ambiguous loss used to well, it does refer to the kind of grief that happens when, you've lost someone and you don't know if they're coming back. So it was originally used in, like, a military context, people who've gone missing in action. So their family members don't know if they're grieving a death or hoping against hope that they'll return. And I kind of borrowed that in this case to talk about grief and motherhood because I think, you know, especially those of us who've been sort of entrenched in bounce back culture, we might wanna say, yeah. But, like, I I'll run marathons again. You know, and or whatever. You use your example. But the reality is it's like we don't know if you will because everything is changing. Maybe that won't even matter to you anymore. Maybe they're, you know, whatever. So there's this idea of grief and this idea that, you know, you may be grieving, what is no longer. And it's possible that even the things that you hope will return won't. Or that you may become someone completely different, like, in a way that's beautiful and delicious and wonderful. And, you know, we can talk about that for sure, and I'm sure we will. But I think we need to make a little bit of room and permission to grieve the things that at least are not right now. Yeah. You know? And and we don't have a lot of permission to grieve things that aren't, you know, death, I suppose, in our culture. Right? Yeah. I think that's one of the biggest shocks to my own system in early postpartum was how much grief I felt and almost feeling like I wasn't allowed or shouldn't be feeling it because, you know, I didn't have a traumatic birth experience. It was pretty good. I I was, you know, fairly supported in postpartum, but it wasn't that grief of loss like you're saying. It's this more ambiguous, like, insidious grief, that you don't really expect. And, yeah, like that that loss of identity of who am I, like, losing yourself that, you know, don't you dare. But it's grieving all of those those pieces and parts. And I I didn't expect to mourn so much. And I think that's kind of a key missing piece in a lot of mother care is this reverence for the grief that comes with becoming a mother and shifting your entire identity. So, like, how do you help mothers with those feelings of grief? I think, first of all, like you've said, is just naming that there is grief here, and that's okay. But, yeah, how do you help with those feelings of grief? Because they can feel shocking. Well, yeah, naming it can go a long way. It can go most of the way. Yeah. But I talk about, grief needing 1 of 4 things or maybe all 4 things, but needs to be felt. So, you know, naming it will often bring up like, oh my god. Okay. I'm allowed to cry about this. I'm allowed to scream into a pillow about this, like, feeling it. Like, let it come out. It needs to be honored. So it's a little bit different than feeling it because it implies that you have permission to feel that. And then it's okay. It doesn't make you a bad mother. It makes you a human. And to really honor that you have grief and and honor it enough to, like, hold space for it and not try to kinda rush past it even though it's uncomfortable. And so that can be you know, giving yourself time and space to grieve. It can be seeking help and saying, I need support with this grief because it's important for me to work through it or at least to have it heard and held. That's honoring fit. You have to feel it. You have to honor it. You have to metabolize it. So, ideally, you know, I talked earlier about how grief wants to become right sized over time. You know? So we metabolize it. When we metabolize something, by definition, we take it in, and we pull the nourishment out of it. And and we let go of what's not serving us. So at some point, we metabolize our grief, and we make meaning. We decide how it's made us in some way, what we've learned along the way, what we wanna hold and cherish out of this experience. And metabolizing is often so it's any kind of meaning making that we do. It's like journaling. It's short. It's talking to people. You might walk it out. You might dance it out. You know, it's often, like, creative, artistic. Like, it's moving and making meaning and making story, of this experience. And then sometimes, this 4 things, sometimes grief wants to be released. And I say sometimes because there are some griefs that will just carry with us, like how I talked about, you know, feel a little that my 13 year old needed me so much today. Like, there are some griefs that we will hold. And some griefs want to be released. You know? Like, maybe your size 6 pants need to go in a bonfire. Mhmm. Because this is, like, there is no going back perhaps. You know, there is an example, or maybe there's a relationship that just needs to end as a result of, the changes that you've experienced in motherhood. Or, you know, eventually, there will be parts of yourself that you may feel ready to let go of. And the release isn't isn't a fundamental, like, it's not necessary, but sometimes it helps to do that. And sometimes it even just helps to ritualize that release in the hopes that the ritual itself will carry some potency and will help you help you release along the way. You know? Sometimes that fire helps, and you might find yourself wishing you were a size 6 still, but, like, you think of the bonfire. Where are those genes? You're like, yeah. Well, I've moved past that now. Yeah. And I feel like in this section, you talk a lot about just, like, this idea of losing yourself. And I think one of my favorite pieces of your messaging in general is this, like, what if losing yourself is not the problem, but the point? And I just I love that so much because it's so true. Like, what if losing yourself really is the point of this whole rite of passage? You know? And my favorite quote from this section is discovering the woman you're becoming is like following the trail of a wild animal in the woods. Walk soft, listen close, and be patient. She is waiting for you. And I just love this so much. It's so beautifully said, and I think it highlights what it really can feel like when you're in the depths of this huge identity shift that happens with matrescence. It can feel like you're just, like, aimlessly wandering, not sure what's up or down, not sure who you are. You don't recognize the woman in the mirror. You hate all your clothes. But putting it into this perspective of, like, you're following the bread crumbs she's leaving for you. Just trust. Just know that she's waiting for you. You know, grieve what you need to grieve, but someone is there waiting for you. And I think that really just changes how it feels, but it still feels extremely uncomfortable. Yeah. So this discomfort of of losing yourself is kind of exactly what we're talking about here is, like, how to navigate that discomfort as you as you move through. And, you know, especially in a culture like we've said that is constantly telling you, don't you dare lose yourself, and you better bounce back immediately while also being the perfect mother or you're worthless. So it's complicated. Totally. Totally. All of this motherhood and matressants is the most counterculture act. Right? Which is what jazzes me up so much about it. Right? It's just like, I feel like, yeah, there's so much about this that asks us to swim against the tide, which is why we need each other. We need conversations like this because it's that's really hard to do alone. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So in our 4 elements model, we've talked about earth, so we're orienting to the changes that no one ever told you about. You're asking, who am I now over and over again? Water, we're traversing and feeling through the grief, the anger, the ambivalence, and this idea of losing yourself in motherhood. And now we're moving into air. Tell us about the quality of air. Yeah. So air is that liminal space that I talked about before, this real time in between. And so maybe you've you've kind of grappled with or reckoned with some of the grief that you've felt, but you still don't feel really integrated in your motherhood. You still don't kind of feel like a mother even though you may certainly be mothering in your life. Remember, this is 2 to 3 years. You could be in year 2 and still feeling like, gosh. I don't know who I am, where I'm headed. And this is you know, talk about counterculture. It's a hard place to be in a culture that says you should have goals and be moving in a direction. And hopefully, that's upward and forward. You should know who you are. Identity is everything. You know, and so this can feel really also uncomfortable. Welcome to the second very uncomfortable part of of the transition to motherhood. And, you know, my clients often kind of say, well, what can I do then? Because there isn't anything to do, kind of. You're kinda waiting waiting for those bread crumbs. Right? But the thing that we can do, I've got, you know, I've got 6 things that you can do actually in the book. But I'll kind of I won't go into them all in detail, but sort of the gist of it is is to really be in this space and time. I kind of I when I talk about the air element, I kinda bring in another metaphor. I kind of if you've ever walked down a dock in the fog and you don't know where the water is I don't know. I live on the coast, so this is a comic. Yeah. You can't really see the water. You're just kinda trusting, and all you can see in front of you is the dock. So that's like walking through air. It's like you focus on your self care. You focus on ritual as a grounding practice. You focus on, you know, the who you know yourself to be or who you've always known yourself to be. We talk about the idea of ancient remembering in this time. So it's a beautiful time to look back and be like, yeah. You know what? I always love to paint. And then somebody told me I could never be a painter. What would it be like? You know, we could start to play in what I call the art of the possible. So, like, when nothing is sure, everything is possible, what what could happen here? You know? And this can be actually a really fruitful time. You know what? I kind of liken it to how you get all your best ideas in the shower. There's actually some neuroscience to it, and it applies to the liminal time in the sense that, you know, this is a time where we can be wildly creative actually and very intuitive. And and really a lot of beautiful stuff comes out of this. If we're able to hold ourselves in this time of discomfort, there's lots of possibility that is also available here. I love that. And I love kind of I think you do this in the book as well, but you kind of relate it to, like, a winter season. And I love using that, you know, cyclical idea of a winter season for any time you're feeling that way, but especially in this case with this liminal space of matrescence, like, knowing that winter will end. And even though it's winter, you know, a lot is happening below the surface. Roots are growing. Things are happening even though it may look like nothing's going on. All air quotes. All you're doing is caring for a baby. You know? So, yeah, I really I love, yeah, kind of relating it to a winter season knowing that spring will come, knowing that new life will come, will emerge. And, yeah, those breadcrumbs are being laid for you by this this woman that you're becoming. Totally. This is radical trust. Right? I don't know about you, but every spring, I've got my nose in the garden looking for the first crocus. Like, oh my god. Is it gonna happen? Even though it always does. It's been 43 years for me now, and, know, spring comes as far as I know. But it it is a radical act of trust to know that we will move out of this liminal time. Yeah. Okay. So moving into our last element, fire. What? I love the element of fire. That's, like, my that's my element right there. But Everyone does. Tell me about fire. Everybody does love fire because it's it's sort of like well, it's sexy. Right? It's when it's the part where kind of these embers of who we're becoming and, like, we may have started to explore this in error. They kind of, you know, light up, and they and they start to kind of build momentum. And we often find ourselves very gradually, gravitationally pulling our kind of pulling into this idea of who we're becoming, kind of experimenting and exploring who we are now. And that's what fire is all about. Fire is like asking that question. Okay. I'm no longer who I used to be. Who am I then? And, like, playing with that and getting curious, exploring. And, you know, I I approach it a little bit differently. Like, first of all, this is the part that our culture wants us to skip to. So we get a few more gold stars from the culture for being in fire. It's, it's a little bit more culturally condoned. But I propose we do it in a really organic way. Talking about those bread crumbs again, literally following the bread crumbs of, you know, what intrigues us now? What are we passionate about now? What are we what are we finding ourselves pulled towards now? And, hopefully, and I talk about this in the book. Hopefully, we've done some work along the way to understand ourselves better, to be able to hear our intuition better. So that as you're kind of stepping your way into who you're becoming, you can kinda discern the difference between sort of this authentic self, this true self that often comes, you know, becomes more clear through times of transition like that. And, you know, all of those messages that we've been receiving since the dawn of time. Right? And so it can be a really exciting time. And, like, step by step and unfolding and unfurling, and it can take time. Like, it can take a long time also. But it's it's more comfortable. It's more comfortable because it does feel like we're sort of expressing who we're becoming and playing and experimenting with that. Beautiful. I love it. Everyone needs to buy this book because we have literally just scratched the surface of, you know, this model of radical transformation. And each of these four elements, Jesse has given you journal prompts and activities to try and actual, like, things to to think about and to do. And not that doing is what we're, like, really going for because that's not the message either. It's not about what can we do here to fix this and change this. It's really about, like, let's let's get in tune with ourselves. Let's think differently about this. Let's just be in this liminal space. So, yes, it's there's so much more here to to be said for each of these, 4 elements. And I'm gonna be mindful of our time, but there's still so much I wanna talk about because you also talk about these superpowers or mother powers that we develop as mothers. So, like, super brief. Can you just quickly share what those are? Yeah. And yeah. Totally. So the second half of the book and we talked about this. It's like, how, how might motherhood grow us up and give us the skills and capacities that the world really needs right now. So the mother powers are these skills and capacities that we, you know, we we have the potential to cultivate through our matrescence. And they support us through our own transition, so at this very personal level, but they are also deeply counterculture. And they are, you know, really important to cultivate in our wider community in the ecosystem of our world right now. So there's 7 of them. Let's make sure I can get them all. You can I always forget one? One always trails behind. Like, what? I got you. I got you. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. So there's and I mean, we obviously we could go into detail in all of them, but self tending, which is a different way to think of self care, ritual, embodiment, earth connection, creativity, community, and inner knowing or intuition. I got them. You got them. We've been working with them for, like, a decade. But anyways. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, we can kinda dive deep, but we've talked about a few of these things. We've talked about community a little bit. We've talked about intuition a little bit. We've, you know, talked a little bit about body changes. And and and there's just, you know, some of these are kind of skills and capacities that are, like, handed to us on a silver platter. Like, embodiment is one of them. Like, you can't mother a child whether or not you birth that child without being pretty confronted with the way you feel about your body because it's such an embodied visceral experience. So, like, you get the chance to grapple with this. You know? It's right there. Low hanging fruit. And then there are other things that, you know, may need a little bit of nudging, like inner knowing, you know, especially in a culture that has advice and things to do and 85 opinions about everything that we might wanna know about parenting. You know, choosing inner knowing and cultivating that is super counterculture. But, again, this time is ripe for, learning how to do that more and developing that skill. So that's kind of, like, high level. Yeah. Just teasers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, each one of those could be truly their own episode. And, like, you've kind of said, there are things like, when I read them, I was like, yes. Like, that's my that's been my experience of, like, feeling my creativity more, you know, getting much more in tune with my own body, longing for ritual and community, like, naturally. It's it's almost as if yeah. Like you said, there are kind of these motherhood kind of naturally directs you towards these things. And, yeah, whether you need a little a little nudge and a little help getting there or not. But, yeah, I love that, the idea of these mother powers. So, how do we complete this rite of passage? So, you know, this idea that a rite of passage is meant to be complete to have somewhat of an ending or a return as you call it, what is that quickly? What does that look like in motherhood or in matressants? Yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, I think it's it's a bit ambiguous, but it you know, everyone I've worked with literally, can kind of look back on the moment that they felt like, oh, yeah. It was when my kid turned 3 or it was when I went back to or whatever it was, that's when I felt embodied in my motherhood. And so I can't necessarily say, oh, this is how you're gonna know, but I can say you will know. And, you know, there are there are kind of aspects of this completion process that I think can help us. And I talk about this a little bit in the book that, you know, we need witnessing. In many traditional cultures, right of passage was never considered to be complete until it was witnessed by the community. Somebody said, I see you're different now. Well done. You know? And in a lot of ways, we we lack even the possibility of that in our culture, you know, because we lack community. So this is one of those pieces that I think is really important. You know, tending to and continuing to tend to the changes that we've that we've kind of cultivated over this time is really important. And so, you know, just making space for that, I think, is is really beautiful. Sometimes having a ritual can be a great way to just I mean, this is the way we have always marked a rite of passage. And I think that lives in us in a certain way that acknowledging this transition with something a little bit more hefty, a little bit more meaningful, and having that witnessed can be really powerful too. Yeah. I I kinda talk about it a lot in the book because it's not easy to define, and sometimes we almost have to define it for ourselves Mhmm. In that way. Yeah. Yeah. And then I love that, you know, the end of the book, you just leave us with this idea that, like, mothers can change the world. And it it left me, especially with this very, like, yes. Like, I I am here. I have arrived. Like, I wanna change the world. It was a beautiful way to to end the book. And I'll maybe, you know, kinda leave us with just a short little quote from the end. It says, our task is to consider, take up, and then wield unapologetically our power in a world that has, for so long, regulated mothers to the realm of powerlessness. I love it. It just leaves you feeling like, yes. Like, there is so much that I I can and have gained from motherhood and, yeah, how I can move forward in my life with that with that new power. Yeah. Totally. Okay. Jesse, thank you so much. Before we end here, yeah, share with us what's happening in your world, where we can find you, if there's anything fun coming up. Yeah. Let us know. Yeah. Totally. So, you can find me on my website, jessieherald.com, and I also write, a monthly newsletter that is not on Substack, but reads like a Substack. It's called it's called Imaginalia, so people can sign up for that. It's pretty fun. And I'm on Instagram most of the time, so people can find me there. And, well, as as we're recording, this is the 1st week of January. So it's a really good question, what's in store and what's ahead. But I know there'll be lots of ways that folks can work with me. And, of course, every year, I run, mother shift, which is the original program that this book is based on, and it's a 3 month program that supports mothers through matressants. And then I also run the village, which is an apprenticeship program for anyone who works with mothers in matressants or wants to. And that's a 6 month program that really supports them to, take, you know, all this juicy stuff from the book and really enact it, and bring it into their own practices and communities. So that's always on the go as well for anybody who's interested. Amazing. I will definitely be signing up for the village. I can't wait. I think I've been bugging you about it since, like, last year saying, when is it happening? When is it happening? I know. We're on hiatus, so this book can come in to life. But this year is the year registration opens in April. Yeah. Amazing. Last part. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jesse. That has been fantastic. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a great conversation. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening. I just wanna end this episode with a bit of a longer quote from Jesse's book, Mothershift. And I just love that the end of this book just really leaves you feeling empowered and excited and ready to take on the world. At least it did for me. So I leave you with this, a quote from Jesse Herold's book Mothershift. Mankhedek writes that when we begin to see the many ways in which we hold tremendous power, not in spite of our motherhood, but because of it, it becomes possible to imagine a different kind of motherhood, fierce and frightening, free and bold, of female camaraderie and knowledge that could reshape cultural, social and political paradigms. And so, though you may emerge from this rite of passage with a great many gifts to bring to your child, your family, yourself and your community, may you not forget the gift and the task that you bring to the world. You, as mother, as a well nourished, embodied, creative human, are what your child needs most, what you need most, and what the world needs most. That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, I would be ever so grateful if you would leave a review on Apple or rate the show wherever you're listening from. It really does help this show grow and blossom. Alright. See you next time.